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Analysis Testing Crit, Damage, Will Destroyer, Ruthlessness

Hey guys, here another awesome post giving you great analysis and testing results about dealing damage, Crit, Will Destroyer and Ruthlessness. Big thanks to John for the preparations and sharing, so check out the article / table / analysis prepared below and like/share if you like it 🙂


Testing Setup and Punching Bag

After a discussion about astrals, I thought I’d take a crack at unlocking the mechanics of some of the most heavily debated astrals.  Here is my test set up.

  • No Eud, No Sylph, No Equips, No astral unless testing
  • L63 clothing (constant)
  • Reduce Res 3131 (constant)
  • Base (m)ATK  71740 (constant unless separately tested)
  • Crit 2195 (constant unless separately tested)

Punching Bag:  Sky Trail L3 Wind enemy- this boss has no buffs/debuffs to skew the data.

Test 1:  What’s the damage?

Using auto-attack, I waited to kill the enemy 3 times.  From roughly 60 attacks, I found only 14 different values of damage appear.  AND they fell into an easily identifiable pattern.  There were 7 crit and 7 non-crit values.  And in each of those 2 sets, the numbers were spaced by 1% of the median value.  Which means, under very simple circumstances, damage centers around the median value with a range of 3% up or down.

3% up or down

That is not even close to the generally accepted 10% that I’ve seen in various threads.  If that was all I learned from this test, I’d consider it a success – BUT THERE IS MORE!

Each of the 7 crit values was exactly 150% (1.5x) of a corresponding non-crit value.  A critical strike has a very fixed +50% increase in damage.  So more crit does not mean bigger crits.  And at this point, I don’t know what to test next because 2 things I’ve basically accepted as true for the last 3+ YEARS were just proven false in about 10 minutes.

Test 2:  To Crit or not to Crit?

So if base damage falls into this super easy pattern, it should be easy to see the effects of changing various things.  I first tested a 4% Will Destroyer with easily predictable results.  I threw another 40 or so attacks at the test subject and found 7 non-crit values.  These 7 values were 4% higher than the original 7 but there were no crits.  Obvious question; why wouldn’t you just use a L10 Will Destroyer for a bonus 50% damage which would be equal to 100% crit?

To Crit or not

Test 3: Very Determined

So I take off the Will Destroyer and run a check of my base values to make sure I’m not imagining what I’ve found so far.  Then I add my Determination astral, which, with the slot buff, gives +42% “crit base damage increase”- whatever that means.  After 2 tests, I see all of the same non-crit numbers from test 1.  So Determination does not affect hits that do not crit.  Probably obvious but I’ll state it anyway.  I also start seeing my crits are much larger than before.  Doing the math, I see that my crits are now 192% of their corresponding non-crit amount instead of the previous 150%.  Plain to see Determination increases the crit multiplier.  So L10 Determination makes the crit multiplier 2x compared to 1.5x without.  That is great for pve but while I didn’t test against Guardian Angel, some basic math leads me to believe Will Destroyer might win out in pvp.

Sample:  L10 Will Destroyer or L10 Determination vs L10 Guardian Angel

Will Destroyer:

For Will Destroyer, damage calculation is straight forward.  You do 1.5 x (base) and since you don’t crit, Guardian Angel has no effect.

Determination:

Let’s assume you have really high crit and get crits 95% of the time.  But if your opponent has GA at (-50%), in a best case scenario, your crit rate drops to 47.5%.  (It may drop to 45% but I did not test).  Average damage is calculated as 2.0 x 47.5% + 1.0 x (1 – 47.5%) = 1.475 x (base)

Is the astral swapping worth it?  Will Destroyer has always had the benefit of being 1 astral vs the standard Sniper Determination combo.

Test 4: Ruthlessness Data

So far, the math has been pretty simple.  Using what I’ve learned, I thought, just maybe, Ruthlessness could be proven either “useful” or “not useful”.  The first thing I noticed, even with a L1 astral, was the damage values were much more varied.  I wasn’t seeing nice duplicated values.  Some, yes, but not the solid 14 distinct values I had been seeing before now.  I normalized the crits into non-crit numbers and could tell a pattern was there, I just couldn’t be sure what that pattern was.  I was able to build a table to calculate the values that I was getting.  The game determines which of the 7 base values you got (which it does by multiplying your median base by 0-3% up or down), then multiplies by a percentage in the range of the astral up or down.  It then goes on to apply a crit by multiplying by 1.5 or more based on whether you have Determination.  Example:

Assume you have base median damage of 100000 and a L1 (7%) Ruthlessness Astral.  Your damage will fall between 100000 * .97 * .93 = 90,210 on the low side and 100000 * 1.03 * 1.07 = 110,210 on the high side.  Averaging these 2 numbers you might think Ruthlessness increases your average damage – it doesn’t.  If you were to calculate all of the equally likely damage values, you’d see there are a few more negative outcomes than positive (ie 100000 * 1.03 * .97 < 100000).  On average, Ruthlessness has no effect on damage.  It comes down to luck – getting positive percentages during big skills.

death to Ruthlessness astral

Final Thought

How widely can this data be applied?  Surprisingly, it holds up pretty well, though Determination is a bit iffy.  Even after adding back the equipment and astrals, you can still see the same patterns.  If you add sylph and kid and kid sylph and 3 other players and multi-hit AOE “damage clouds” well it is pretty clear why we don’t notice the mechanics.

Discussion

  • Share your thoughts and experiences about these issues in the comments below.
  • Please remember that there are many aspects in “real life” of Wartune and these tests are done on as “clean” as possible data to be able to discover game mechanics.
  • It is 100% OK if you wish to disagree, but do so in a human respectful way – no need for any insults.
  • We made the below poll to capture what build you guys are using in Wartune (Crit or Will Destroyer), so cast your vote:

Crit build vs. Will Destroyer build - which are you?

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Crit, Damage, Will Destroyer, Ruthlessness

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34 Comments

  1. The thing i would like to know is the chance of having a crit attack. If I would crit only 50% of the time, I would obviously use a will destroyer astral, but if i could crit 80% of times then I would go Crit all the way.

    • guardian angel doesnt seem to work as well as it says.

      • I AGREED

  2. crit build for archers is a must
    unless you are talking about knighthood then idk

    • in knighthood archers get a +30% extra crit dmg, so with astral lvl 10 they can do a 130% crit hit dmg.. wish is OP, also the pasives they have is crazy, up to +90% dmg buff and up to +60% dmg taken for the enemy…

      • well Knighthood Archer, Mage and Knight there both depend on there Talents level. Cause there are 7 things in Talent such as:
        – Intensity & Crit
        – Tenacity & Block
        – Influence & Penetration
        – RES Reduction
        – Light & Water Resistance
        – Dark & Fire Resistance
        – Electro & Wind Resistance
        but all these Talents to get Talents Points by (Balen or Bound Balen)
        To max on single Talents Level:10 like {Intensity & Crit} it can increased by 100%.

        Archer Passive – Crack Shot depend on the which level:
        Level 1: 10%
        Level 2: 15%
        Level 3: 20%
        Level 4: 25%
        Level 5: 30%

  3. any player can be use crit build, but depend how u play it. For explain (without Knighthood skill just the normal class) when Mage have crit build there can heal huge amount using Blessing Light so as damage giving extra bonus w/ crit.

    Archer alway use crit cause there hit really hard and higher patk, but depend how much crit it land on just like Mage or Knight using crit. Both Knight & Mage using crit build isnt so bad if there want the extra bonus damage w/ crit.

    1. I think Crit – is Extra Damage added.
    2. t think Will Destroyer – is increase the Damage

    All these I try it when I once use Will Destroyer but didnt give much Gold/Daru in World Boss, but use Crit it did change alot even w/ hard boss. So Crit is the best than Will Destroyer.
    (Crit give u BR but not Will Destroyer)

    • yes that s true vs world boss u re going to deal bigger ammount dmg like with will destroyer BUT vs PvP re crits crap 60% reducing crits from astral and 30% from knight passive skill and vs PvE is crit reduced be 100% from set skill so when re u knight for example u can pass spire without recieving crit and when u going vs opponent with 100k of crit u can reduce this crit to 10k this s reason for Will Destroyer everytime win
      because your crit value is reducable Will Destroyer can be reduced only with skills and these skills also makes effects on crit dmg have a good day goodbye

  4. But all Talents for Knighthood Level need alot of paying Bound Balen or Balen, heard at lv:25 or 26 will cost u like 128k and my toon talents lv:11 only but to get next lv:12 need 6,400 bond balen/balen. it keep on going building more money each time you lvl them.

    • at lvl 25 you need 21200 bb to go to 26 on talents. i know cause thats where im at right now lol

  5. thanks for this post,has me thinking on some other data im going to test out.will submit my findings in couple days 🙂

  6. The limited damage range is very interesting, I know that wasn’t true back when I tested it, but that was a long time ago. I got over 20 distinct damage values (no crits) before I stopped keeping track. Some would be due to the brutal edge trigger, but that’s still more than what you found.

    As for crit vs. will destroyer, there are two reasons why crit is generally better:
    – You only need to exceed a 50% crit rate to do more average damage, and 50% is easy to beat; 70-80% is common
    – With dual gems, you will either be wasting half of your atk+crit gems, or going without the extra atk if you use EWD. You can go heavy on defense instead, but it’s not a great strategy.

    Also, Guardian Angel has never been proven all that effective. Similar to Illusion, the stated percent is way, way over the actual effective rate.

    • well u forgot how much crit you have doesnt matter much according to this test and also having 1 astral for the will destroyer build is better than 1 astrals in the crit build
      also their are other things that decrease crit percent like passive skills

  7. crit probability drops especially after u played the game for quite some time (mayb u ran mpd etc) and u notice the game starts to lag/lazy/becomes heavy where everything slows down (frame rate etc) thats when ur crit go down the drain

    or u got slow internet (mayb some downloading something in your network) ur crit % drops

    that is based on my experience playing this crap game for 4 yrs

    aint no such thing as luck/randomness…is all ‘luck/randomness’…

  8. but if you switch to EWD what does that mean for the attack/crit gems? so you get rid of those and lose all that extra attack? or leave them and just sit with a high crit stat that is useless?

    • ya one would leave and ignore the crit in that case to maximize attack if that is what is wished

    • your crit value will be useless but still your crit makes effect on crit of your eudeamon it s bad enough but in me opinion when u re warrior and u just starting it s best t use will destroyer later u get much more bonuses from gems 400% bonus from gems + added stats from gear smelting and u can make good enough crit for PvE but for PvP re crits very crappy cause when u playing vs cashers they may have 90% crit reducing so at all if u re warrior it s best to start with will destroyer and build block for passives skills when u re mage u don t have so good passives but u can troll with skills there u don t have nothing extra so if u think that u have pretty good crit u may use crit as main dmg source and if u re archer u getting passive on crit so u must be silly if u playing archer with will destroyer 🙂 have a good day 🙂

      • Yes definitely agree with you that Will Destroyer on Archer would be very silly 🙂
        And yes for Warrior / Mage Will Destroyer is definitely a viable strategy for both small and big players
        Thanks for sharing your thoughts,
        Cosmos

  9. If they’d put out Attack/Block or Attack/HP Gems it would make it very interesting. As it is, being the only Attack-hybrid gem is Attack/Critical – it kind of forces one into taking the Crit Build, unless one is content losing about 25k Attack to gain equal Defenses and/or HP/Block.

  10. no, guardian angel not work so. not decrese of 50% the critic rate, but the 50% of critic gained. this mean that if we receive a critic value 100% and we have the angel guardian to 54% , we receive anyway the critic because is to 46% . so you take fully the critic. guardian angel work only with who do the critics but the critic value is lower of your guardian angel. they can also do the 100% of critics, but if them “dices” pull value higher of your guardian angel , are all critics. but if are all under 43% and you have 44% in angel guardian, all them critics are 0% .

    • i strongly agree.
      thats why in the end i decided to go crit instead of staying EWD.
      Gems or not gems…its a point though….still tiny amounts compared to tattooes.

      I dont particularly agree with the “ruthlesness” since it increases the base damage a crit would do.
      TO ME that means its like the “floating damage” but only applied to crits WHEN they appen.
      IN FACT i found that having lower critcs COMPARED to the ruthlessness level makes it harder to do a Crit damage.

      SO if you find yourself in a situation where you dont see such ruthlessness-effect, you have to either RISE you critics or LOWER you ruhlessness astral level.

      you should check this cosmos &co.
      if im right, i revealed my little trick 😛 😀

      • i’ve tested 2 years ago the rutheless and increased the critics of a bit and decreased the critics taken if i had also the angel guardian.

        why this? increase the damage increase also the critic rate. much less of critic stat, but also the attack increase the damage. same thing for decrease the damage. more defence = more chances of reduce the critics. why also the heavy cashers reduce too fews the critics? symply because them damage taken are still too high for decrease the damage. the formula is still the same of when we was all – 80th lvl and when no one could do the 90-100% of critics .

        wartune should adjust the critics/reduce critics with a new formula. soon we’ll have more of 100k in critics and increase the attacks are easier of increase the defences. same things in medalion. we have higher bonus on damage and less on reduce the damages. same thing for the determination and the goddess blessing.

        and very few players use the will destroyer because we not have good astrals and because the attack is the 80% of us power.

        in DI we have need of attack, in wb same, in spire nm same, in tok nm if we protect we lose. we have the formation 4×2 and not anymore 4×3. so, we never put someone back or very rarelly.

        i’ve talk on these things with a my mate on server kong-11 and he have told only that all want do so.

        for now there are 2 builds in my server: full attack (dps . but i call also “all want do the archers”) or waste them build be tanky but with the critic build.

        these are the major builds on my server. no one use the will destroyer to advanced class and soul engraving level 80.

        for now the only 3 good astros are the determination, the goddess blessing and the illusion when will be maxed (30% of dodge is a very good value) .

        refine astrals is builded very bad: +10% to determination , illusion , goddess blessing, but not to health blessing, regeneration, deflect (they increase only the value bt not the trigger… is are so useless or close to it…) and the astros that give the stats. the 10% of determination is a lot better of 10% or an astro that give the stats. i could continue to write more thinfs, but on this thread we talk only on determination, ruthelessness , will destroyer.

  11. deal is: will destroyer won’t help your eudeamon. So, unless you don’t use it to lower lag, choice is pretty easy.

    • Dear friend, enhanced determination might not help eudaemon. Eudaemon have a separate critical stat. Plus sanctuary hunter is the only eudaemon which has a passive skill which increases critical damage. Hope this information comes in handy.

  12. Base crit dmg is 25%. With enhanced determination lvl 10 it becomes 75%. We need tons of crit to pull out optimum crit rate. That’s 20% of our atk. EWD is easy and convenient. We can increase our atk and try it everywhere. Post class advancement all % based astrals could get plus 10%. Which build would you choose if you have crit rate of 40% as a mage? The choice is yours.

    • Sorry buddy but your numbers may all be completely made up
      I don’t know where you got them, but those numbers are not known
      – Cosmos

      • Dear friend, I didn’t make up the numbers. It’s from personal experience of 4 years in this game. I noted that difference between normal hit and critical hit was in a percentage. It was 25+10+2.5, all in percentage without enhanced determination. The base critical damage percentage was revealed in an online encyclopedia and I disclosed these numbers after experimenting. Mages have a terrible critical hit rate. I’m playing as a mage and I’ve experienced crapy critical hit rates under normal circumstances. Hope this information comes in handy.

      • Hi again DESIRE 🙂

        1) There is no known proven analysis of the numbers that you talk about and there is no official online encyclopedia for Wartune, so if you took numbers from some website, that’s fine, but that does not make those numbers correct.

        2) Over the years people have tried to do experiments to find out the correct numbers for Crit and Block but none was able to make the proof – only some ideas or guidelines were concluded such as a general recommendation to have 10% of Attack to be Crit which again is not a proof but just an idea.

        3) Crit Damage and Crit Rate are 2 totally different things.

        4) There has never been any experiment or study that shows that mages have “crappy” crit rate.

        This is definitely an interesting area and I am not saying you are right or wrong, I am just saying that the numbers you quoted are not based on any science or official sources.

        Cheers,
        Cosmos

  13. Dear friend, I’ve prospered through the information I got from this site. I thank dolygames wholeheartedly.

    • Thank you 🙂

      • Dear friend, I just came to know about this. Base critical damage is 25% and enhanced determination increases it. But floating damage always stacks with critical. Tested it and found almost no deviation. Please verify it my friend.

  14. ppl are saying block doesn’t work anymore for some reason what are they talking about?

    • anyone can see that blocking occurs in battle rendering that statement untrue
      however, the effectiveness has dropped and is expected to drop due to //wartune.dolygames.com/patch-6-3-astral-elevation-guide/

      • yes penetracion s big enemy of blocks but I think not so much it s hard to lvl up your astrals with astrals elevation and many players only starting with it so for now when u re not big casher or don t have account with testing
        purposes like Cosmos u probably ll never show up so high penetracion on other players to reduce your block to minimum + block can be raised in knighthood pasive ability have a good day goodbye

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